relations council are a german cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want to hear a year in gaza can you give us an update what you've seen over the last twenty four thirty six hours over the last time frame that you just said we've seen the killing of two baby children one two and one four year old earlier today we saw the killing of a fifteen year old to israel these are casual damage to us and to the gazan people these are unacceptable murders ok greg how do you assess the situation there is a lot more rumors of a cease fire in the air how do you think this is going to play out. i believe there's a cease fire that's expected to go on that then you'll see a sation of hostilities and hopefully the result of peace negotiations however what you have to realize is that the reason why children are being killed is cause hamas is putting their military infrastructure that's the schools that's the community centers and next to neighborhoods with residential areas they didn't put their

rocket launching pads next to killer gardens there wouldn't be so many child who would be dying ok marine go ahead how would you reply to that it's always the masses fault. outdated tired old propaganda you know murder and may have and it's and it's never the fault of the murderer this is this is simply outrageous and more importantly one hopes will some day have to be argued in front of the international criminal court where the judges can decide on the basis of the laws of war whether such drivel is acceptable or not you know looking also at the political dimension. the most recent reports we have is that the egyptian president mohamed morsi has indicated a ceasefire will start tonight if that is indeed accurate i think first of all we can expect a spike in violence leading up to the cease fire the reports israel has given the

entire population of gaza city dropped leaflets ordering them to immediately evacuate perhaps areas in a position to confirm that but more importantly it means that israel has failed to achieve its reclaimed objectives of deterring the palestinians and eliminating their long range rocket capabilities ok harry and this will be a huge blow to yeah i mean harry what is the morale like i mean how are people reacting to this is a seventh day as we're doing this program. well yes in the last half an hour to an hour there have been effecting. operations across the gaza strip basically five manger population centers in the north of the gaza strip have been asked to evacuate of course this is basically what david cameron calls an open air prison just very difficult to understand where the i.d.f. expects hundreds of thousands of flee. well as the

other guest said this operation is never going to be successful for israel because that will always be palestinians who resist the resistance and at the moment they say that they're capable of doing are sending these unguided missiles into israel so this is going to go on perpetually so it's very difficult to understand what israel's objective is other than just killing a lot of palestinians would you like to respond to that and he said. you know i think that we have to be able to respond to a few accusations here which are completely based on with first of all the missiles which are being fired from gaza are being fired at israeli population centers they don't discriminate they're targets which are for the main part civilians secondly israeli strikes which have been going on have been targeting only military command centers and military infrastructure what that means is that when they target certain. large head or rocket device or any kind of militant who's planning of attack on israel there's a calculus which is made between the proportionality of that attack and also if

there will be civilians who will be killed now civilians are put in danger but when israel has the way it's wall obligation to protect its citizens versus that of protecting palestinian citizens it's the onus of hamas to make sure that any rockets they do fires or are going into it or areas this is really what's the range in the agreed ceasefire israel broke the cease fire israel started this conflict greg you want to to reply. yeah i don't think that they're trying to broker a cease fire because at the same time they were the ones who started the hostilities in the first place over a week ago with over four hundred rockets that were watched before israel the side to take out. so if we look out from the beginning of the year you have one thousand two hundred rockets if you look over the last ten years you have twelve thousand rockets it's the onus of hamas to stop these attacks and that's the only reason why israel has responded in the way it's ok moon please jump in look i mean these israeli embassy. talking points and concocted sister sticks you know may may sound

good when one preaching to the converted but one also has to occasionally take into account the real world the fact of the matter is this latest round began when israel shelled a group of children playing soccer on the field in the gaza strip and killed a thirteen year old boy the fact of the matter is that palestinian militants responded to that attack with attacks that were solely directed at israeli military rather than civilian targets the fact of the matter is that israel that they were only drugs that israeli civilian targets why did they hit a palestinian village in the west bank. go ahead excuse me i'm talking about the gaza strip in the last two hours this is as well as i can look so i responded. i was on the things that he was fraudulent the way it's about how this conflict or

rather this latest round of conflict began and you were simply trying to hoodwink us and and our viewers i'm giving you facts. you know there are a matter of public record and your attempt to distort that and invent replacement facts for it is not going to get you anywhere. greg go ahead fair time everyone. ok you don't have to listen to my words you can look at the paper of the. certainly no i don't go to the other errors words. what i'm trying to say is that. you can look at any arab newspaper and find the same rocket numbers of the same casualties in the same strategies that are being used even islamic jihad spokes person called really civilians do you read arabic yes i do i do sir ok which newspapers are you referring to i also speak hebrew i also speak turkish and i see. papers are you referring to which which arabic.

or of your version of events. you can that was a story in your israel or says documents all very largely going on israeli territory but how many israelis have been killed how many israelis have been killed sitting here right now is that he said one hundred and twenty palestinians let's have a listen was he being killed in the last week. ok greg go ahead because it's a weekend show on i want to be fair gemma's and doesn't want to hear it is since. ok hamas does not care about how many palestinian civilians are killed because they don't do anything in terms of building infrastructure protect they and therefore it is you know you want to kill israeli as they really are some school yards. in why israel cares about its civilians. still i mean it's not really been mentioned here gentlemen gentlemen nothing's been mentioned here they did the gaza strip is under

siege go ahead i would still like to know which arabic newspaper reflects this absolutely ridiculous distorted version of recent history we are now being served up. secondly. is is are the claims that greg norman is making about how mass somehow a justification for mass murder by israel in the gaza strip whether in two thousand and eight two thousand and nine or today or in the next round now peter you mentioned the seeds i mean there are underlying factors here there is the occupation there is that continuously deprived right of self-determination of the palestinian people and of course in more recent years there is a siege and blockade of the gaza strip that's the context what we're seeing now is a symptom of the cause rather than the cause itself. which i can reply that greg.

sure the first of all the newspaper was. second of all accusations of mass murder. you know necessary to make because what's happening is israel's defending itself now if you're asking why less israeli civilians have died then civilians in gaza it's because israel actually cares about its people and has developed active protection systems to make sure that those rockets that are being fired at israeli civilian targets israel just to. have their interests and systems that the third the third point responding to your points could be one chance the third point about the siege is the following after operation cast lead in the mavi marmara incident israel changes paradigm for humanitarian aid and allows in all humanitarian products at the request of third party n.g.o.s and the palestinian authority if anything gaza is suffering now because of the divide between fatah and hamas and the basic you know. everything that i see all the guys is provide everything is

mostly our people go ahead everything but everything about the occupation look peter i'd like to propose the following have a supposed back on your show and greg can produce an article from the deed that justifies his rendition according to this conflict started when hamas fired four hundred rockets at israel the newspaper if you can't produce it he'll eat it all gentlemen if you want to be on thursday please do contact my producers ok ok harry if i go to do you before we go to the regime and there's no well how well can the gazans protect themselves i mean the israelis protect their people are the gazans allowed to protect themselves. well the israelis cool's that operation operation pillar of cloud the palestinians don't have a name for it that shows who started it because one of them actually already had a pre-determined name ok larry i'm going to have to jump in here gentlemen we're going to have to go to was short break and after that short break we'll continue

our discussion on gaza state. war criminals we have. groups.

all. right enough. but wasn't. when i was. you can. certainly can't do it through the barrel of a gun only effective social changes can be the afghans themselves afghan men and women we believe are going to stand up to across. its opposition and. stop people in the obama administration talking about how much they care about the women of afghanistan it's not true they don't care about the women of afghanistan. will go to the troops to look at the world pass you by as the best and brightest

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markets. come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike's concert for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into kinds a report. and you can see. and. welcome back to cross talk i'm peter lavelle to mind you were talking about the assault on gaza. and egypt. ok great i have to go back to you in pittsburgh let's say i mean as we're talking

here that in the negotiations for a cease fire in place what did israel accomplish this time around if anything. first of all it's white doubt most of hamas has long range rockets but more real politic sense in terms of the balance of power what we have now is israel showing that it's willing to mobilize seventy thousand troops to go on the gaza border it's also reinforce the syrian front and the show to terence to other regional bodies like hezbollah that it's willing to take the fight to the ground of the enemy now while you also have to see is that israel is for pairing for a diplomatic offensive to negate the palestinian declaration of independence which is unilateral not done through negotiations at the united nations on november twenty six so what we have here is a new middle east israel needs to adopt its reason dog draw in order to be able to adapt to the new situation that's going on in the region now you also have hamas

asserting itself in a post arab spring conflict the way that gaza war two thousand and eight two thousand and nine during operation cast lead was fought is very different from the way this war is being fought you have rocket attacks on tel of the rocket attacks on jerusalem and they've sort of upped the ante so if a ceasefire is resolved tonight as was announced by president mohamed morsi i believe that this should go into a round of peace negotiations between hamas and israel i'm not sure what abbas will fit into this equation but if the ceasefire unravels you can guarantee that israel will do everything that is necessary in order for it to defect to centrally defend its people and also to raise the level of the tyrants against islamic jihad and hamas ok marine great said this is the you know the post arab spring environment it seems like on every single front israel is losing on every front now look to anyone

seriously believe that israel's inability to take out a few dozen rocket launchers in the gaza strip which has completely encircled. does anyone seriously believe that is going to anyone least of all. or is it going to once again show that in fact it is israel that is losing at the tactical and strategic level particularly in the context of regional changes. i mean you know. obviously this is a catastrophe for the palestinians but to suggest that somehow israel is going to emerge strengthened from this is absurd particularly if the key issue of arresting and reversing israel's unity and its dealings with the palestinians is effectively dealt with. harry i mean tell me more tell us my audience more how the palestinians in gaza are reacting to all this i mean they're being terrorized of course but

unfortunately they've gotten used to it over the years and the siege i mean what's the sense of solidarity on the strip. well just a very very quickly injected into the how mass the resistance groups in gaza have been definitely absolutely strengthened by this and in terms of reconciliation between hamas and fattah yesterday they actually both hamas and fattah said that they will be unified against this assault on gaza israel seems to treat the patterson's with so little humanity they can't even listen to it to the palestinians press releases hamas is stronger in gaza the resistance is more unified in terms of its support in gaza israel has basically shot itself in the foot the palestinian people in the last few days have the ones i've spoken to said that they feel for the first time in history they've had some sort of defense force themselves as these resistance groups have struck israel with more strength than they have previously in history including with

a longer range missiles so if eels like things here in gaza are going to get worse and worse actually sings there's been this leafleting of dancing. populated areas in gaza are asking hundreds and thousands of people to evacuate when they can't evacuate anyway so it looks like on the one hand grad ground invasion or escalation certainly is going to be forthcoming but also we're hearing these murmurings about cease fires as well which mean going on the last few days i think the palestinians are preparing to go home and buckle up for the next few days of violence ok greg what do you think of the future is here i mean you know israel always talks about a peace process i have never seen it in my lifetime ok where does this go because you know there's the it's interesting when you ok gaza gets attacked but the the but there is building of settlements on the west bank continuously ok i mean israel just wanted to create these political facts to capitated hamas ok and keep building ok what's what does that mean for the peace process so-called. i mean it's terms of

the peace process you have to understand one thing the second terror rockets are stopped being launched from gaza the israeli military response will deescalate and they will not have any attacks going on gaza from israel the same holds true for the west bank the second that president mahmoud abbas agrees to negotiate with israel. any israeli measures in terms of unilateral action the west bank will also cease we saw their willingness and desire to keep telling the lead line settlement freeze hold out wait one second sir i will allow me to finish a sentence and then afterwards we'll go to you so in the west bank the second that the palestinian authority is willing to negotiate you'll see also israel stopping unilateral measures there but the only thing that unites fatah and hamas is its mutual hatred for the jewish state and you see that when they don't have a common enemy they usually just go to fisticuffs and disagree on every other issue

so that was really spelling a bad bad bad future for the middle east if the only thing that they can agree on is their hatred for israel ok now we need to do we left a paradigm janson fair time i mean it seems to me that israel is creating its worst nightmare and that's one state ok and they're going to have to deal with it or be called an apartheid state ok their kids creating the situation themselves. well i think you know there is a ready. in effect. a apartheid one state reality between the mediterranean and the jordan river and the challenge for the palestinians is how to effectively challenge that now i mean to suggest that somehow you know mahmoud us the extremely compliant to put it politely. leader of the palestinian authority in the west bank is somehow driven and his

policies. by hate. rid of the jews which i presume that the systematic security cooperation between the p.a. and israel is the highest expression of that i mean this is you know this is beyond childish to make such arguments i mean really you know the issue here is israeli occupation of palestine issue here is reverse arresting and reversing israeli impunity which allows it to continue. attacking and colonizing palestinians in the occupied territories those are the real deal but we in fact have eighteen times and there hasn't been a resolution. is that a serious question. is that a serious question did an aerial. question anyway only answer that. any point in those negotiations except withdrawal to the nine hundred sixty seven

boundaries in accordance with un resolutions did israel at any point in those resolutions accept. scuse me in those negotiations accept the resolution of the palestinian refugee question in accordance with the relevant un resolutions and international law did israel at any point in those negotiations accept a whole sale dismantling of settlements in the occupied territories as called for in numerous un security council resolutions including ones that were supported even by the united states. back in the day it's very simple a state is occupying the territory of another people and it's not that simple taining and expanding that occupation is the reason that there is no peace in the middle east great. it's

a colonial. resolution two forty two calls for a just resolution the borders and the refugees. and also in two thousand and seven . mates yasser arafat and some awkward abbas for ninety nine point one percent of the lead in two thousand the camp david to. the lawyer for henry and that was purely. pure fantasy and you know that it was the one who revealed those numbers since two thousand interview with time magazine so while yours is out the rhetoric which you made out of your talking away it's way out just so i understand your slam correctly that that goes on to understand your claim correctly mahmoud in two thousand they stated that who would but uk for. ninety nine point one percent of the west bank are you seriously making that claim. yes this is this sort of us very slowly making a lively hapless negotiations that collapse because of operation was led well

there's not much that there's not much i mean if you're making that claim with a straight talk about what you're saying is you repeating the same palestinian narrative for forty three years of israeli occupation yes and that in their. eyes. israel has to cease its occupation i think of palestinian territory to have and there is absolutely no reason why that narrative should change. no this is the reason why should change because that narrative is promoting violence and incitement against jews rather than evolution is. part of it is promoting violence it's the occupation that you are supporting there is violence. there wouldn't be an occupation if there was palestinian recognition of jewish rights as well this is the two sides here let me just say that this is hard you are almost certain that says i'm ok here in germany we're almost out of time here is going to head. this

charge of anti semitism by the palestinian people is easy disproven on the historical on the serious historical record including in the last few weeks with jewish delegations coming to gaza israel is occupying somebody else's country israel is bombing somebody else's country and israel won't concede land that it's trying to colonize in somebody else's country as a condition of peace talks israel is eating up other people's our economy and of running out of time but it's a very much fascinating discussion many thanks today to my guests are you guys are among an impish grin thanks to our viewers for watching us to see you next time remember across tough rules. and.

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